The Biden administration defends its decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. And Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is competing, awkwardly, for the anti-LGBTQ vote.
SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
The Biden administration will provide Ukraine with cluster bombs, a weapon banned by more than 120 other countries, including many US allies, and denounced by human rights groups for the harm they can cause to civilians. Cluster bombs consist of dozens of small bulbs scattered over a large area and can cause widespread collateral damage, including when they don’t explode until days or weeks later, when a child innocently walks by and picks up a small object to play with. NPR’s Ron Elving joins us. Ron, thank you so much for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Nice to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: Let me play for you what Colin Kahl, the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, said in a briefing yesterday.
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COLIN KAHL: I’m as concerned about the humanitarian situation as anyone. But the worst thing for civilians in Ukraine is that Russia wins the war. And so it’s important that they don’t.
SIMON: I have to say, Ron, I’ve seen cluster bombs in action in various wars around the world. They are ugly, destructive and indiscriminate. The administration is essentially saying, yes, yes, but is this a necessary evil?
ELVING: That’s not the language they would use, but that seems to be very much the concept here. They say that the overall need to save Ukraine justifies any means we choose that we deem necessary. Therefore, Ukraine does not have enough artillery. Also, they need more ammo for the artillery they have. The US can’t supply fast enough. But hey, there are those surplus cluster bombs in the inventory. So the hope is that Ukraine will work hard to minimize civilian casualties. After all, they would be Ukrainians. And there’s also a promise to stay engaged long enough to remove unexploded ordnance on the road. So we will see how this plays out at next week’s NATO meeting because many NATO countries respect the international ban on these munitions.
SIMON: And National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan has already said that NATO will not vote on whether to admit Ukraine into these talks. But questions of alliance and war will be at the center of their deliberations, won’t they?
ELVING: Yes, of course. It’s the elephant in the room. It has long been seen as a key Putin goal in this war to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO as an independent country, adding yet another adversary to Russia’s borders. Of course, what has happened instead is that NATO has expanded, including Finland, with its 800-mile border with Russia. At the same time, there are cautionary voices in the US warning of the consequences of pushing Putin too far. Some have even blamed the West for provoking Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in the first place.
SIMON: Among these voices on the left, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is running as a Democrat for the presidency. Recent polls showed it was 17% among Democrats last month. What will happen if Mr. Is Kennedy doing well in New Hampshire next year, even if the New Hampshire delegates don’t qualify for the convention?
ELVING: Oh, the Democratic National Committee has decided that the first primary they count will be in South Carolina next year, the idea is to de-emphasize the rural, white states of Iowa and New Hampshire that have been the seed states for everything the whole. process for so long. So New Hampshire will have what we call a beauty pageant for Democrats, even as Republicans, on the same day, choose actual delegates. However, we’ve seen New Hampshire damage presidents’ re-election campaigns in the past: Lyndon Johnson in 1968, then the first President Bush in 1992. They were psychological upsets where the challenger didn’t win but did better than was expected So the challenge of RFK Jr., still far from being in that weight class at this point, and apart from his famous name, serves as a sort of universal protest candidate.
SIMON: Ron, what do you think about Gov. Ron DeSantis accusing, if that’s the word, former President Trump of being a staunch supporter of LGBTQ+ rights?
ELVING: It’s a one-minute ad with a clip of Trump saying he would protect the rights of LGBTQ citizens and a clip where he says Caitlyn Jenner can use any bathroom she wants in Trump Tower. The bottom line is that DeSantis says Trump is not a true culture warrior like Ron DeSantis. DeSantis continues to campaign as if the way to beat Trump is to run to his right. Maybe this ad isn’t a sign of desperation, but it’s hard to see how it actually helps.
SIMON: Ron Elving, thank you very much.
ELVING: Thanks, Scott.
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